THE Showdown!

[PrimeDirective]

Okay Jazz. How could a Pretender get into the Clones' frequency in the first place? Even if they did manage to hack it, I guarantee that Palpatine wouldn't miss that. He'd know what happened in a heartbeat.

And the Mini-Con weapons? They're only that powerful if put together, and I doubt that any Megatron would risk the recoil from firing it without having it firmly grounded. It'd just do too much collateral damage.

Besides, the Hydra-cannon could take out only one third of the Earth. It was stated by Thrust himself in Armada. So, most powerful weapon in the universe? Sure, if I'm the fattest guy in school.

Unless Primus and Unicron have some sort of Ubershield, they wouldn't be able to stand up to a blast from either Death Star. Y'see, the first had the power to reduce an entire planet to rubble with one blast. The difference here is that Unicron and Primus are made of metal, correct? That only means more damage to them.

See, when you take the energy required to obliterate an (roughly) Earth-sized planet so completely, it's going to generate a tremendous amount of heat. Easily enough to make Godzilla blush redder than the hellfires that birthed him. This heat would no doubt have residual effects on the armor and internal systems of both, if they're not obliterated in one shot.

And that's not counting the second one, either.

The second Death Star literally corrected EVERY flaw in the original. "But PrimeDirective, it was never finished!" So? Since this includes EVERY continuity, I'm sure you would be forced to count the alternate universes that are so over-used where the bad guys win that final battle.

Well, with a complete Death Star II, quite literally nothing short of Unicron getting close enough to devour it would be able to destroy it, and that's if he can get through that shield. Even if he can, there's no doubt that the Death Star would be fast enough to turn around and shoot him.

And there goes your only Unicron, seeing as he's a multiversal singularity.

[The Last Autobot]

I started this debate on another site and one person brought up a very valid point. Why couldn't the TF's just use the movie Allspark and create a giant Transformer out of the Death Star? Then SW would not have a chance.

[Overlord]

Okay Jazz. How could a Pretender get into the Clones' frequency in the first place? Even if they did manage to hack it, I guarantee that Palpatine wouldn't miss that. He'd know what happened in a heartbeat.

And the Mini-Con weapons? They're only that powerful if put together, and I doubt that any Megatron would risk the recoil from firing it without having it firmly grounded. It'd just do too much collateral damage.

Besides, the Hydra-cannon could take out only one third of the Earth. It was stated by Thrust himself in Armada. So, most powerful weapon in the universe? Sure, if I'm the fattest guy in school.

Unless Primus and Unicron have some sort of Ubershield, they wouldn't be able to stand up to a blast from either Death Star. Y'see, the first had the power to reduce an entire planet to rubble with one blast. The difference here is that Unicron and Primus are made of metal, correct? That only means more damage to them.

See, when you take the energy required to obliterate an (roughly) Earth-sized planet so completely, it's going to generate a tremendous amount of heat. Easily enough to make Godzilla blush redder than the hellfires that birthed him. This heat would no doubt have residual effects on the armor and internal systems of both, if they're not obliterated in one shot.

And that's not counting the second one, either.

The second Death Star literally corrected EVERY flaw in the original. "But PrimeDirective, it was never finished!" So? Since this includes EVERY continuity, I'm sure you would be forced to count the alternate universes that are so over-used where the bad guys win that final battle.

Well, with a complete Death Star II, quite literally nothing short of Unicron getting close enough to devour it would be able to destroy it, and that's if he can get through that shield. Even if he can, there's no doubt that the Death Star would be fast enough to turn around and shoot him.

And there goes your only Unicron, seeing as he's a multiversal singularity.

Primus and Unicron in the Marvel G1 Transformers comics were the equivalent of abstract beings in the main marvel comics continuity. If you've ever read Marvel comics, you know the abstracts are ridiculously powerful; they are not corporeal but actually represent universal, sometimes multiversal concepts. Such as Eternity, abstract embodiment of all there is in the universe, and Oblivion, abstract embodiment of nothingness, and from where everything shall return inevitably. Needless to say, these abstract cosmic beings are omnipotent.

Unicron and Primus aren't made of metal in marvel comics (at least, not in their true forms). They're made of energy. And their battle was destroying the universe they were in. I.E., the collateral damage from their battle was laying waste to the entire cosmos.....this ain't no transforming planet!

Transformers FTW due to god-like beings, for which SW has no counter.

[PrimeDirective]

I started this debate on another site and one person brought up a very valid point. Why couldn't the TF's just use the movie Allspark and create a giant Transformer out of the Death Star? Then SW would not have a chance.

The movie shows Allspark-created robots other than the Transformers themselves to be virtually mindless.

Overlord: I do see your point. However, "no counter" seems to suggest that the Star Wars universe cannot even hurt Unicron or Primus. Considering there's an actually living Planet in the Star Wars universe, I sincerely doubt that.

I was never trying to convince you guys that Star Wars would win. Being a Transformers-based forum, you guys would probably say that Optimus Prime could beat Godzilla. I was, however, trying to convince you that it would not be so easy as you think.

[Banzai-Tron]

Unicron and Primus aren't made of metal in marvel comics (at least, not in their true forms). They're made of energy. And their battle was destroying the universe they were in. I.E., the collateral damage from their battle was laying waste to the entire cosmos.....this ain't no transforming planet!

Transformers FTW due to god-like beings, for which SW has no counter.

No counter? NO COUNTER? The Jedi SPECIALIZE in manipulating energy! One could argue that the greatest of Jedis could MORE easily dispatch of your pesky god-like energy beings.

And to counter the "use the Allspark" argument? Well... for ANY transformer to be "safe", it would have to have consciousness more powerful than the most powerful Dark Jedi. Otherwise, the Dark Jedi could just force out the TF consciousness and claim the body for their own. Which also gives the SW Universe it's own version of a Pretender.

Once again, I reassert my position:
NO ONE would win. Every single uni/multiverse that included Star Wars and the Transformers would be completely and utterly destroyed.

EDIT: I take that back. If the Micromasters ran away and hid somewhere, they *might* survive. And then *finally* be useful.

[Jazz]

Man, this is getting good.

PD, valid points, not gonna lie, but TFs have other means to destroy your (Any) Death Stars: Disguise. TIE-Bombers, Imperial Drop ships, heck, Wheelie of Frenzy could be a mouse droid! No frail old Sith could easily snuff out a robot in the midst of a huge raging war.

As for the Mini-con weapons, a third of the earth is pretty gnarly, it would still be a beast on anything.

Death Star, complete or not, 2 or 20, we still have something better and oh so more efficient: The infamous Decepticon Planet Buster of Vok!

I don't think a powerful Jedi could do damage on a "Energy-Gods" that corrupted a whole dimmension.

The AllSpark could turn a Death Star, or anything else SW has into a TF. That adds another soldier, along with the others being revived by TLA.

The TFs would get hurt, sure, but I just can't see SW beating advanced super robots that have higher IQ and tech for weapons.

If a small band of Rebels, the dorks of the SW universe, could break through the Death Stars sheild, I bet super TF A-wings couls swoop in, take out the shield generators, and deal some damage to the main laser, allowing Unicron to snack away, he would only have to worry about the other Death Stars...but wait, the Planet Buster....

[Overlord]

Unicron and Primus aren't made of metal in marvel comics (at least, not in their true forms). They're made of energy. And their battle was destroying the universe they were in. I.E., the collateral damage from their battle was laying waste to the entire cosmos.....this ain't no transforming planet!

Transformers FTW due to god-like beings, for which SW has no counter.

No counter? NO COUNTER? The Jedi SPECIALIZE in manipulating energy! One could argue that the greatest of Jedis could MORE easily dispatch of your pesky god-like energy beings.

And to counter the "use the Allspark" argument? Well... for ANY transformer to be "safe", it would have to have consciousness more powerful than the most powerful Dark Jedi. Otherwise, the Dark Jedi could just force out the TF consciousness and claim the body for their own. Which also gives the SW Universe it's own version of a Pretender.

Once again, I reassert my position:
NO ONE would win. Every single uni/multiverse that included Star Wars and the Transformers would be completely and utterly destroyed.

EDIT: I take that back. If the Micromasters ran away and hid somewhere, they *might* survive. And then *finally* be useful.

nah. The jedi specialize in manipulating energy but primus and unicron are so far beyond the scope of anything they ever imagined that they would resign themselves to be non-factors. it's like a group of skilled little kids being adept at building wooden model ships. then one day someone comes along and expects them to build two nuclear powered air craft carriers. general, broad principal is the same (make something that floats) but it's an entirely different scope beyond their abilities.

anyway, "omnipotent" jedi like freedon nad or exar kun or whoever...if they were even a fraction as powerful as marvel comics primus and unicron are....they'd have conquered the galaxy far earlier than the eventual mess it became with the rebellion and the empire. hmm did i say galaxy....my yes all of SW occurs within a small scope of 1 galaxy, doesn't it?

[Banzai-Tron]

Ummm... unless I'm missing something, there's no such thing as a "Decepticon Planet Buster of Vok". If you're referring to the Beast Wars' Vok aliens, their planetbuster was actually pretty limited, and just detonated the huge energon stores which they had themselves seeded on the Earth. That's not horribly effective as far as planet busters go.

We can go back and forth with arguments, but if you don't at least look into the non-movie SW universe, you're simply not going to understand. I'm well versed in both canons... and I FAR prefer the TF universe... but the SW universe simply has WAY more firepower, and WAY more numbers.

Two (of many) examples of the extreme power of Dark Jedi:
Darth Nihilus could move 1200m long capital battlecruisers. He could contain his consciousness within inanimate objects (i.e. escape death). His force powers had the range of the ENTIRE star system he was located in. He was only able to eventually be defeated because another Force-user, through convenient scripting, was able to cut him off from the Force.

Darth Sion, the Lord of Pain, was immortal. The more damage he took, the more powerful he became. He was only defeated because he was convinced by someone that life wasn't worth living, so he stopped healing himself.

It's doubtful, nigh impossible, that TLA could resurrect TFs forever. Just because you saw him do it for one battle doesn't mean he could continue for a day, let alone a month, year, or generation.

And the Dark Jedi can still transfer their essence into the most powerful TFs available. So, the All Spark just turned the Death Star into Death Star Vader, you say? No problem. Emperor Palpatine, after unleashing a dying Force Scream that wiped out half an Army of Autobots just transferred his consciousness into it. He thanks you for the Alt Mode, and he'll be sure to send mental notes to all the other Jedi regarding his new found physical power.

[Banzai-Tron]

hmm did i say galaxy....my yes all of SW occurs within a small scope of 1 galaxy, doesn't it?

Well, actually, NO. The SW Universe *focuses* on one galaxy. There are many besides the one you're familiar with. Which just serves to further the "SWU has numbers on its side" portion of the argument.
# Yuuzhan Vong Galaxy, the home galaxy of the Yuuzhan Vong.
# Rishi Maze, also known as Companion Aurek, a satellite galaxy located north of Kamino.
# A second satellite galaxy known as Companion Besh.
# Companion Cresh
# Companion Dorn
# Companion Esk
# Companion Forn
# Companion Grek
# Thousands of other galaxies in the universe, including ones whence some mystery ancient species came, or the one the Brodo Asogans visited.

[Overlord]

hmm did i say galaxy....my yes all of SW occurs within a small scope of 1 galaxy, doesn't it?

Well, actually, NO. The SW Universe *focuses* on one galaxy. There are many besides the one you're familiar with. Which just serves to further the "SWU has numbers on its side" portion of the argument.
# Yuuzhan Vong Galaxy, the home galaxy of the Yuuzhan Vong.
# Rishi Maze, also known as Companion Aurek, a satellite galaxy located north of Kamino.
# A second satellite galaxy known as Companion Besh.
# Companion Cresh
# Companion Dorn
# Companion Esk
# Companion Forn
# Companion Grek
# Thousands of other galaxies in the universe, including ones whence some mystery ancient species came, or the one the Brodo Asogans visited.

yeah, which is why it STILL boils down to "occurs." how many of those locales are revealed as extensively as the central SW galaxy? I.E. have their armies, tech, personnel been featured as much? the yuuzhan vong are just extra-galactic invaders so we know their capabilities. what about these others...did they all invade the alliance/republic? did the alliance/republic/empire/sith invade them? is extensive knowledge revealed about the "thousands of other galaxies", etc, or is an extensive amount of the fiction dedicated to visiting other galaxies and witnessing their capacity for war

do you see my point.

and we've seen the republic get taxed by the mandolorians, we've seen the alliance get taxed by the yuuzhan vong. what happened to the force in those instances, against the mandolorians (who just use tech) and the vong (whose extra galactic nature made them immune to the force, much like the TFs would be)?

anyway. regardless, Primus and Unicron still FTW

[The Last Autobot]

TLA is like a part of Primus. What makes you think he couldn't continually revive them?

[Time Traveller]

Look at the geekiness gauge of this thread.... IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAAAA...


No, srsly. Firstoff, Transformers aren't inanimate. Second, every fricken Prime has stored HIS life essence in the Marix.
Also, good thing the Nemesis is 4000m long...

Also also, Darth Beast Wars Rampage was also immortal. The more scared you got, the stronger he was, and he turned into a giant tank. What's this about a force scream? I remember lots of yelling and lightning, but not much of Luke or Vader or anyone else dying...

And one last... Maybe exposure to the concept of force usage would awaken transformers, who are a sentient species like any found in the SW universe, to the fact that some of them can use the force! EH?

[The Last Autobot]

Okay. Here's the biggest question. Who would the Star Wars crossovers fight for? Us, or SW?

[Jazz]

Okay. Here's the biggest question. Who would the Star Wars crossovers fight for? Us, or SW?

I would say the TFs side, cause at the core, they are Transformers.

[PrimeDirective]

Okay. Here's the biggest question. Who would the Star Wars crossovers fight for? Us, or SW?

Nobody, 'cuz that line is the worst idea in a long, sad history of bad ideas.

TT: Only organic beings can use the Force, IIRC. Even if an Autobot or Decepticon was able to use it, it would never be able to harness it, because the OJO only allowed organics, anyways. Of course, the NJO allowed non-organics, but there were no robots.

And the Yuuzhan Vong or however you spell it were prepared SPECIFICALLY to deal with mechanizations used by foes. Not to mention that their home planet, well, it bites back.

[Rattrap]

If we're talking about all of transformerdom, what's to say a pretender or one of those beast machine techno-organic freaks wouldn't possess the midichlorians to manipulate the force?

[PrimeDirective]

They'd still need the training to wield it.

[Rattrap]

You would think that the meditation junk that the techno-organics used would pretty applicable once they were in a universe with the force, and an untrained force user can still do a lot.

[PrimeDirective]

Can still do a lot of uncontrollable damage.

[Jazz]

Can still do a lot of uncontrollable damage.

Yeah, it may trash both sides, but we have TLA to revive us.

I'm just seeing a whole lot more ways TFs would win in this poll, even with you and Banzai-Tron throwing out everything you have.