The world improved a little today!

Ironhide · Post by **Ironhide** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:12 pm

Over 100 contries has come together and banned the future use of cluster bombs today!
The US, Russia, China and Israel refuse to sign the treaty. Hopefully the stigma on using these weapons will ensure they're never used again regardless.

Linky

Ramjet · Post by **Ramjet** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:53 pm

I hate how it's OK to kill each other, but not in certain ways. It's nice in theory, but it won't stop people who don't abide by the 'rules of war'. Think roadside bombs, landmines, etc. Like my old man used to say- "A lock only keeps an honest man out."

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it if it reduces collateral damage. But regular bombs can remain unexploded as well.

Ironhide · Post by **Ironhide** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:01 pm

I totally agree, but 'every little step' and so on.
A critical issue with cluster bombs I believe is the sheer number a single rocket can deploy. That and they can't be targeted very well.

For example, it's reported that in the short war between Israel and Lebanon in 2006,
'...the current U.N. estimate is that Israel dropped between 2 million and 3 million bomblets on Lebanon, of which up to a million have yet to explode.'

Linky

Sideways · Post by **Sideways** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:04 pm

Funny how the US and Russia are the only nations not to sign the pact. Maybe Obama will change his mind. Bush won't.

Arcee · Post by **Arcee** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:48 pm

Hound wrote:For example, it's reported that in the short war between Israel and Lebanon in 2006,
'...the current U.N. estimate is that Israel dropped between 2 million and 3 million bomblets on Lebanon, of which up to a million have yet to explode.'

Linky

From the article:

"What's shocking and, I would say to me, completely immoral," he said, "is that 90% of the cluster-bomb strikes occurred in the last 72 hours of the conflict, when we knew there would be a resolution, when we really knew there would be an end of this."
Dropped so late in the war, it's hard to imagine what specific military objective these bombs could possibly have been meant to accomplish. Instead, they seem to have been dropped as a final, gratuitous act of violence in a war waged against an entire population. The vast majority of the 1,200 Lebanese killed by Israeli bombardments were civilians; one in three was a child.

I cannot even DESCRIBE to you just how much that absolutely BOILS MY ****ING BLOOD right now. OMG, I could honestly go crazy. There aren't enough curse words in the english language. WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE? I swear to God, this is exactly why I can't even bear to watch the news half the time, because it's constantly so infuriating and disgusting ... just constant reminders as to what a downright despicable world we live in.

Grimlock · Post by **Grimlock** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:41 am

I think that any decision not to use any kind of weapons against people can only be a good thing.

I am one of those unrealistic people who hopes for world peace one day.

Rattrap · Post by **Rattrap** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:53 pm

So all the people in the world who don't use cluster bombs, aren't going to use cluster bombs any more? Doesn't exactly seem like a big step forward. The cluster bombs is a perfectly effective and legitimate weapon in conventional warfare. While some nations choose to use these weapons in questionable ways (namely Israel and Russia), the US is very conscious of collateral damage due to the massive media attention is always garners. Due to media coverage this treaty is generating, I would not be surprised if the US severely cuts back on its use of Cluster Munitions, but I certainly hope we don't sign this treaty. That would render us unable to deploy these weapons, rather than merely unwilling.

Post by **Time Traveller** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:09 pm

Frankly, Arcee, it wouldn't be the first questionable anti-civilian mass bombing committed. I, for one, find the bombing-flat of Dresden (an incident that killed more civilians than either of the a-bombs) 12 days before the end of WWII eyebrow-raising, at least.
Rattrap, while I see your point of view, such weapons are easily put to use by those with less scruples, and I'd say robbing them of the opportunity is the closest thing to a solution we can have there. Further, going on what RJ said, I think if we're going to kill each other in "certain ways only", I'd forward research on smart weapons with a guaranteed near-zero collateral, like the prototype Dominator UAV (smart bomb? what would you class it as?), or the Excalibur shell for the M-109 self-propelled artillery unit. The Excalibur can be programmed to destroy a single building in a city without directly damaging any others on the same block. I'm sure you'd break a few windows, but it certainly beats missing on a carpet bomb run on a war factory and wind up destroying all the laborer quarters for a mile around...

Grimlock · Post by **Grimlock** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:01 pm

I thought that the German town of Dresden was bombed with the firestorm effect in retaliation for the almost complete destruction of Coventry by the Axis.

But I could be wrong.

Post by **Time Traveller** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:02 am

Coventry was destroyed in 1940, as it was a central store of arms and munitions, however the Dresden incident was unrelated. First, i must apologize, the bombing was a matter of weeks, not days ebfore the end of the war. The city center was bombed til it was 90% destroyed, assisted by the ensuing firestorm. many industrial and military targets were undamaged.