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Philly's choice a good move?
Yes, perfect place for Vick to rebuild 27%  27%  [ 3 ]
No, Vick could have benefited elsewhere 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Vick lost his right to play a professional sport 73%  73%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 11
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 Post subject: Vick Goes to Philly
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:31 am 
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Note: This post is in no way an attempt to offend, only to offer an opinion on a current event

And I love it. I was a huge Vick fan since ATL took him in 2004, and then he did what he did.

A dog owner myself, I still have my priorities concerning the society I live and participate in. Case in point; Ray Lewis, Leonard Little, and now Donte Stalworth. What do these three dudes have in common? Thats right, they all killed a human being and continued to play (Stalworth will next year).

My point, a few pitbulls aside (which I don't feel are an acceptable breed in the first place considering they are the most dangerous pet to own) is that this dude truly paid his debt. 2 years in the can, and now he has Dungy in his corner. Highest paid player in the NFL and lost it all...only to contemplate it for 2 straight years everyday, every month, every minute, every second of 2 years.

Philly is the perfect spot for him. Kolb is hurt, and Philly has probably the best front office in the league to deal with the PR. Plus Reid is a mastermind when it comes to utilizing his weapons, and comes out of the shadows in terms of "potential teams" and signs Vick. What does that mean? He has a plan to utilize one of the most dangerous football players to touch the field. Every chance he lays his hands on the skin...there is nearly a 45% potential of a touchdown by air or by feet.

Lets chat it up, what does everyone think? I'm a Redskins fan myself, and should probably hate the Eagles---> but I watch football to see the explosive action and plays that I miss producing myself...

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:25 am 
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I personally think that Vick should have been banned from Professional sports for life. Killing a man is one thing, but a dog that cannot defend itself against us like another human being? It's immoral and wrong. To each his own, I suppose. To me, a dog is a dog and it doesn't matter what breed you make kill each other, it's morally wrong. He may have paid his debt to society with 2 years in the slammer, but now people will look at him differently for what he did.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:15 am 
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There is nothing wrong with this topic, as it stands, but eyes are on it.

So far, everyone has behaved themselves, and stated their own cases for the argument at hand and nothing has gotten personal.

Let's remember that we are all friends here, and keep it civil.


Thanks,

Maggy

-TFL administrtive staff





Now, that disclaimer aside....

I know when they put him on the field, the main thing I would be worried about is the safety of the line that is hired to protect him, as there are going to be some folks anxious to treat him like he treated those animals.

I have to say that personally, were I on the offensive line hired to protect him, I would surely be tempted to "accidentally" let a few of the biggest, ugliest, nastiest folks in the league slip right by me.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:56 pm 
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Sideways wrote:
I personally think that Vick should have been banned from Professional sports for life. Killing a man is one thing, but a dog that cannot defend itself against us like another human being? It's immoral and wrong. To each his own, I suppose. To me, a dog is a dog and it doesn't matter what breed you make kill each other, it's morally wrong. He may have paid his debt to society with 2 years in the slammer, but now people will look at him differently for what he did.


Good point, but I'd like to further point out that the three people that died at their hands were in no position to defends themselves i.e. an unsuspecting Lewis' knife, and Little and Stalworth in the car, drunk and out of control vs a pedestrian at night.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:42 pm 
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Simply but, if you're going to allow people that have taken human life back into the NFL, you have to give the guy that took dogs' lives back into the NFL.

Now, I was just as abhorred by Vick's actions as anyone else... but I'm also a huge proponent of "everyone deserves a second chance" (within reason, of course). If you don't at least attempt to give ex-cons a chance, then they'll have little to no choice but to continue to be criminals.

So, Bravo to the Eagles for sticking their neck on the line. But if he screws up in any significant way again, I'm all for banning him for life.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:01 pm 
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Ex-convicts certainly do deserve a second chance.

Nobody said that second chance has to be making millions, with your face on tv weekly, at least 16 weeks out of the year.

As for the others that got back in. Not necessarily the best situation there either.

Most teams have what is called a "morals" clause. You commit horrendous crime, you get dropped, and your contract is null and void. I would certainly be all for the entire league having one. Perhaps even the guy that shot himself in the leg because he had to carry a gun into a night club in the waistband of his sweatpants would be out as well.

I am not saying everyone should be expected to be perfect, but when you are paid that amount of money, for playing a game, and have that amount of exposure, it should be beyond "Oops, my bad."

There is plenty of talent out there. I think we all know the story of the third string quarter back that was bagging groceries to make ends meet, that went on to get a Superbowl ring (or two)?

If some of these guys that have had a full ride since high school want to look a gift horse in the mouth, then so be it. Let them see what the average ex-con has to face for their second chance.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:56 am 
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Vick back on the field? That is an issue in it self. The man had been rotting in the slammer for two years. This is not the longest yard with Adam Sandler. Prisons don't have football teams. Vick was a very talented man. I'm not saying he won't get most or all his skill set back but it will take time. So we can now fault the Eagles for waiting so long to sign him. Preseason practice has already started. Vick has to get used to him new teammates and they to him. I can only assume it it harder to protect your QB when you never know if he is going to take off and run.
Speaking from experience giving ex cons a second chance is almost like finding a golden ticket in a candy bar. My father is a minister. He used to go to prison a few times a month to talk with the guys that had found him. Five or maybe six of those guys he knew came to live with us for a little while after they got out. Dad had a bunch of rules but one was to go to church with the family. Most followed the rules but a few stopped after a while. Of the five one had another brush with the law but finally turned out okay and is now a minister himself. One may have gone back to the lifestyle he lead before but is staying out of the law's radar. The others went right back to their old ways.
Hopefully Vick doesn't slip back into that lifestyle or back out with the same group of people. I also hope Vick can see that possibility and surround himself with other people. Finally I hope the Eagles are not so stupefied by the great Michael Vick that they can see that he may or will still need after care.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:10 am 
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This is good stuff guys, and my intent for the post. I follow him heavily, but I like to have every perspective as well.

Here is another tid-bit that is part of Vick's contract, he must be as active off the field as he is on the field.

Simply put, if he doesn't continue the fight against animal cruelty, his ass is grass...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:47 am 
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Ultra Magnus wrote:
Ex-convicts certainly do deserve a second chance.

Nobody said that second chance has to be making millions, with your face on tv weekly, at least 16 weeks out of the year.

As for the others that got back in. Not necessarily the best situation there either.

Most teams have what is called a "morals" clause. You commit horrendous crime, you get dropped, and your contract is null and void. I would certainly be all for the entire league having one. Perhaps even the guy that shot himself in the leg because he had to carry a gun into a night club in the waistband of his sweatpants would be out as well.

I am not saying everyone should be expected to be perfect, but when you are paid that amount of money, for playing a game, and have that amount of exposure, it should be beyond "Oops, my bad."

There is plenty of talent out there. I think we all know the story of the third string quarter back that was bagging groceries to make ends meet, that went on to get a Superbowl ring (or two)?

If some of these guys that have had a full ride since high school want to look a gift horse in the mouth, then so be it. Let them see what the average ex-con has to face for their second chance.


1) Up to a point, a man should be allowed to make a living in a lawful manner that best utilizes his skills. Obviously, Bernie Madoff shouldn't be allowed back into finance, but Michael Vick's egregious crimes weren't on the football field now, were they?

2) The NFL already has a "morals clause". It's called the "NFL Player Conduct Policy". Goodell has actually done a fairly good job of enforcing it with an iron fist since he's been in charge. That's why you don't see Pac Man Jones anymore. Or Stallworth now. Plaxico Burress (the guy that shot himself in the foot) was suspended by his team for the remainder of last season, and then released. He will likely be suspended by Goodell for this season as well. Or many others.

3) Michael Vick remains suspended until at least week six of the season.

4) Vick filed for bankruptcy. He owes at least $4 million dollars to creditors... how else to pay this back than the NFL? LOL.

5) This IS beyond "oops, my bad". This is:
a) Good-bye $13 million dollars per year.
b) Hello 23 month federal sentence
c) Hello additional partial NFL suspension
d) Hello constant scrutiny


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 1:06 pm 
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Banzai-Tron wrote:

1) Up to a point, a man should be allowed to make a living in a lawful manner that best utilizes his skills. Obviously, Bernie Madoff shouldn't be allowed back into finance, but Michael Vick's egregious crimes weren't on the football field now, were they?

2) The NFL already has a "morals clause". It's called the "NFL Player Conduct Policy". Goodell has actually done a fairly good job of enforcing it with an iron fist since he's been in charge. That's why you don't see Pac Man Jones anymore. Or Stallworth now. Plaxico Burress (the guy that shot himself in the foot) was suspended by his team for the remainder of last season, and then released. He will likely be suspended by Goodell for this season as well. Or many others.

3) Michael Vick remains suspended until at least week six of the season.

4) Vick filed for bankruptcy. He owes at least $4 million dollars to creditors... how else to pay this back than the NFL? LOL.

5) This IS beyond "oops, my bad". This is:
a) Good-bye $13 million dollars per year.
b) Hello 23 month federal sentence
c) Hello additional partial NFL suspension
d) Hello constant scrutiny


His $4 million to creditors had nothing to do with his crimes, but to do with making $13 per year and still living beyond his means, and not planning ahead. Had he been injured, he likely would have similar problems (though his contract probably had a clause for injury).

Yes, he had a 23 month federal sentence. However, most convicts, when they come out, don't get to go on TV, regardless of their talents. They are lucky to get construction or convenience store jobs and eventually work their way through electrician or plumbers school. That is their second chance. Not another set of million dollar contracts.

He knew the rules, he broke them. He was fully aware what he was doing was wrong, and illegal. He should not have wanted to risk his promising future on suck activities. A smarter man would have realized how blessed he was, and been content. As we are not dealing with a smarter man, let another man have a shot at the spot, and allow that guy to make better choices than this guy who knew the risks and blew it.

Constant scrutiny? Ha! That is the least he should have been worried about, to begin with, even if he hadn't been caught. Someone out there knew what he was up to.

Now, he is going to be making millions again. Seriously, giving him back everything he had (for the most part), it is pretty much a "My bad," and he is done.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:18 pm 
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That's not an apples to apples comparison. A closer comparison would be a common criminal being BARRED from working in a convenience store or construction job. Instead, they'd have to... well heck, I don't know. Be one of those Mattress sign waving guys or something. But even that doesn't compare. They'd have to be relegated to being a Mattress sign waving guy that gets paid $2.00 an hour.

Simply put, you will ONLY truly know if a criminal has been rehabilitated by placing him back in his former position or one better, if his position was an influence in his crimes (assuming his crimes didn't involve his position).


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:39 pm 
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But in the real world, when you fill out a job application, and inform them as to whether or not you have committed a felony, you do not get hired over less qualified competition. That is why ex-cons work in convenience stores and construction, generally speaking, as opposed to a nice calm office situation. This is true regardless of what type of felony they commit.

It has nothing to do with whether or not their crimes were committed in the workplace. It has more to do with checking "yes" next to that question on every job application filled out.

Either way, anyone making millions for being gifted enough to play a game better than most others should mind himself, and not put himself into a situation where he could lose it all.

No, he should not be perfect, but there are billions of people in the world that make it day to day without committing felonies that will never make millions in a single year. Many have needs much greater than his. Many work harder than he can imagine. Why reward someone that is willing to jeopardize it all?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:49 pm 
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But he's not being rewarded. He went to jail. He took a paycut of OVER TEN MILLION DOLLARS.

And he HAS been discriminated against by his pool of employers, just as any other convict has. When Joe Convict goes out looking for a construction job, the first 10 say "Convict? No Way!". And then the 11th job says: "Convict? Well, if you'll work for half pay, I'll give you a shot, but don't screw up!"

That's exactly what's happened here with Vick. He's working for 1/10th of his former pay for the first year... if he proves that he's BOTH reformed AND skilled still, the Eagles have an option to pay him roughly 1/3rd his previous pay. In effect, he's a construction worker working for about $3.50 an hour this year, and $12.00 an hour next year (I don't know what a construction worker makes... I'm guessing $35.00 an hour, judging from my tenant's unemployment check, lol).


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:14 pm 
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And there is the lesson for the kids today...

Commit a felony.

Still make over a million your first year back with the promise of more, if you don't mess up again.

I might cry for Vick if he was making league minimum. He isn't.

Anyone that tries to tell me that he is suffering because of his percentage pay cut, is going to be hard pressed.

The unemployment rate is its highest in decades, but the guy that organizes a dog fighting ring still makes 7 figures as a form of "punishment"?


By the way, my example of the construction job ex-con was not of guys that worked in construction previously. It was of anybody that commits a felony, but doesn't have their face on tv. It doesn't matter if they are a particle physicist that shot the guy that broke into his house, or the heart surgeon that had one too many to drink after he lost his twelfth patient in a row. They both have the same job prospects as the guy that never did anything but sell crack to school kids.

In fact, in this day and age, there are people quite desperate enough to kill, for just a portion of Vick first year back "cut" income, just to keep their family from being put out into the street.

I respect your opinion, BT, but you will not be able to change my mind on how he is supposedly suffering.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:00 pm 
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I knew going into this discussion that I wasn't going to change your mind about anything. 95% of the time, people are too set in their ways/beliefs/mores to change their mind about anything.

But that doesn't mean our conversation is meaningless or useless, so if you don't mind, I'll carry on! ;)

If a convict is denied the ability to pursue his work, you might as well just lock him up for life (or ship him to Australia! Vick would be GREAT in Aussie Football!)

The veteran minimum for Vick's years of service is almost $700k. If you look at the list of salaries for backup quarterbacks beyond their rookie contract, he IS being paid FAR below the market value. (A quick glance shows the range goes from $2mil to $6mil, depending on game experience. I suspect bizarro-Vick would be worth the upper end).

I'm NOT saying we should be crying for Vick. I'm just saying he deserves a chance to either prove he's changed, or prove he hasn't.

He served 2 years as a form of punishment. He'll be subject to protest, threats, and jeers as a form of punishment.

Oh, and newsflash: The particle physicist gets another job in his field, at a reduced rate. The heart surgeon? If he stays sober, he gets another job at a reduced rate as well. Want to know what happens to a cop who drives drunk? He gets a five day suspension, and loss of vacation time! Kills someone while drunk? Ok, he might be out of a job... but he GETS HIS PENSION EARLY.

The world is FULL of felons. 6.6% of all Americans will serve state or federal prison time. That breaks down to 11.3% of all men, and 1.8% of all women. So, roughly ONE IN EVERY TEN people you see is, or will be a felon.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:33 pm 
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i'm a HUGE eagles fan and look at this in a couple ways. i think vick can be a weapon if deployed in a version of wildcat. mcnabb, westbrook, and vick in the backfield would make some D's sweat. he will be a distraction as i'm sure PETA will descend on the Linc. should be interesting to say the least. i can't say i love the guy but sometimes people deserve a 2nd chance.

p.s. astrotrain kolb played in the 1st preseason game. i don't think we will see vick as a qb but more of a gimmick guy.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:39 pm 
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also to say pitbulls are a "dangerous breed" is a little harsh. i have known some really sweet pitbulls. we have a pug and his best friend in the neighborhood is a pitbull. any breed can be "dangerous" if it is mistreated or taught to be aggressive or just reacts on instinct. they are animals after all.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:40 am 
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To be fair, though, the breed "pitbull" was bred from the most aggressive dogs, in hopes that it would have a natural tendency toward aggression. that makes them dangerous. Besides, animals are no more predictable than people. You can train the dog to be passive, but can you ever permanently take the aggression from its blood?

Sorry Brawn, but I have to go with whoever suggested pitbulls, as a breed, are dangerous on this one.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:54 am 
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However, it was not the pit bulls that got bored with their lifestyle, decided to starve themselves, and then fight to the death to eat each other as food.

Yes, pit bulls can be nasty, but so can starved cats, or mice for that matter.

Whether or not a pitbull can or will be mean given a set of circumstances, is not the question at all. Of course they can.

Then again, if a reasonably civilized human were starved almost to the point of dying, he may just engage in similar behavior.

Anyone that blames the dogs in the situation needs to reevaluate their own priorities.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:29 pm 
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many of the pitbulls that were hung, beaten, electrocuted, etc were so treated b/c they wouldn't fight. in dog fighting the submissive dogs are usually used as "practice dummies".

i do agree that all dogs/animals can be unpredictable. we have a pug that is really friendly. if people ask me if he bites i always say he's never bitten anyone before. we can never account for what any animal will do.


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