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Philly's choice a good move?
Yes, perfect place for Vick to rebuild 27%  27%  [ 3 ]
No, Vick could have benefited elsewhere 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Vick lost his right to play a professional sport 73%  73%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 11
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:02 pm 
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Now you guys are arguing two different things. Unless I'm mistaken Maggy and Brawn, TT and Astrotrain ARE NOT talking about pitbulls used for fighting.

Pitbulls IN GENERAL are a dangerous breed. Even IF they're *perfectly* trained, that natural aggressive tendency remains. There are numerous instances out there of a perfectly well trained, well behaved Pitbull mauling children with little to no provocation. Simply put, even with the absolute best traininig possible, you will NEVER be able to train out the *possibility* that instinct will take over. And if/when that instinct takes over, due to the attack style of a pitbull, it is FAR more likely that the dog will maim or kill, compared to say, a vicious attack pug.

"The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) published in 2000 a study on dog bite-related fatalities (DBRF) that covered the years 1979-1998. The report found that

"the data indicate that Rottweilers and pit bull-type dogs accounted for 67% of human DBRF in the United States between 1979 and 1998. It is extremely unlikely that they accounted for anywhere near 60% of dogs in the United States during that same period and, thus, there appears to be a breed-specific problem with fatalities."


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:58 am 
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Ultra Magnus wrote:
And there is the lesson for the kids today...

Commit a felony.

Still make over a million your first year back with the promise of more, if you don't mess up again.

I might cry for Vick if he was making league minimum. He isn't.

Anyone that tries to tell me that he is suffering because of his percentage pay cut, is going to be hard pressed.

The unemployment rate is its highest in decades, but the guy that organizes a dog fighting ring still makes 7 figures as a form of "punishment"?


By the way, my example of the construction job ex-con was not of guys that worked in construction previously. It was of anybody that commits a felony, but doesn't have their face on tv. It doesn't matter if they are a particle physicist that shot the guy that broke into his house, or the heart surgeon that had one too many to drink after he lost his twelfth patient in a row. They both have the same job prospects as the guy that never did anything but sell crack to school kids.

In fact, in this day and age, there are people quite desperate enough to kill, for just a portion of Vick first year back "cut" income, just to keep their family from being put out into the street.

I respect your opinion, BT, but you will not be able to change my mind on how he is supposedly suffering.


I wasn't raised by my parents letting me make my own decisions about what was a good lesson or not, you know why? Because I was scared to death of them and nothing else mattered to me except how their morals transferred into my life.

A common problem with our society today is that kids aren't afraid of their parents anymore because they've been empowered with this idea that there are pillars of moral character outside of their parents that they can learn from. Thus, if the kid picks something up off t.v. and runs with it, its the parents fault because they didn't explain to them the facts and what message is important.

I grew up when people were bombing buildings and putting substances in evelopes. And the OJ trial was big too. Guess what? I'm pretty accomplished at my age getting ready to sit for my CPA exam and am married. Why? My parents were involved in my life and used what was on the t.v. to shape my morals themselves.

Case in point:

{Kid} Dad, I saw Mike Vick on t.v., the man that hurt all them dogs. Why is he still playing football?

{Dad} Yes, he is still playing football. Dog fighting is a very very bad thing, and harmful to the animals. Michael lost his entire life because of it and went to jail for the bad things he did. He couldn't see his dad or mom or his kids for 2 years. He lost his job, and his family because he hurt the dogs. We have to remember though, that when people make mistakes, those that admit to them and accept the punishment deserve one more chance. Dogfighting won't get you into the NFL, but if you admit to your mistakes and accept the consequences like you should and always will, you have the chance to do something great. Mike is playing football, but is now teaching kids how bad dog fighting is.

This is similar to a response I received from my father about OJ getting away with murder. I remeber it nearly word for word because he was so vocal about the wrongs and the rigths regarding the issue.

Of the salary issue, $1.6 million isn't the league minimum, but for someone with his skill set, ability, and experience, its less than minimum wage, the guy has a god given gift for football. Giving someone else a chance? Look at Quinn, Anderson, Smith from the 49ers, and Leinhart...Heisman winners and elite collegiate careers, they're all NFL jokes. Talent, yes, elite NFL ability...Yet to see it, and maybe only one will ever get there (but I doubt it). Once its all said and done, Vick will still be paying for what he did well after the 2nd year $5.6 million option.

Now we look at it this way from an accountants perspective:
Loss: 135 million
Loss: 10 million (attorney's fees)
Loss: 5 million (debt)
Gain: 1.5 million (1st year contract)
Gain: 5.6 million (2nd year contract)
Net Loss 142.9 million

Add in the loss of 2 career years and potential ability, and a 2 year disconnect with his family, and accepting it all ontop of that. I'd say given the circumstances, he's already become a changed person by taking the consequences in stride and accepting them....

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:45 pm 
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Banzai,

i know you can't train a dog to be completely unaggressive as i said there is always a chance for animal instinct to take over. A perfectly trained Labrador could maul a child also and i am sure there are documented cases of that.. and yes i know a pitbull attack would be more damaging than a pug attack. that is why they are chosen for dog fighting. they have a powerful bite and do not release easily when they latch on. I am just saying you can't classify all bull terriers as vicious.

in my experience they can be very friendly when given proper training and treatment. As an aside to the CDC study you quoted it also says that the pitbulls in question of DBRF were proven to be highly unsocialized.

sorry to create a topic inside a topic :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:16 pm 
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Brawn wrote:
Banzai,

i know you can't train a dog to be completely unaggressive as i said there is always a chance for animal instinct to take over. A perfectly trained Labrador could maul a child also and i am sure there are documented cases of that.. and yes i know a pitbull attack would be more damaging than a pug attack. that is why they are chosen for dog fighting. they have a powerful bite and do not release easily when they latch on. I am just saying you can't classify all bull terriers as vicious.

in my experience they can be very friendly when given proper training and treatment. As an aside to the CDC study you quoted it also says that the pitbulls in question of DBRF were proven to be highly unsocialized.


I don't believe anyone WAS classifying all bull terriers as vicious. We're just saying that they're MORE DANGEROUS than your average dog. Bull Terriers are more dangerous when instinct takes over, and it's slightly more likely that instinct will take over with them.

And a Pit Bull can be all sweet and friendly for years... until the wrong trigger sets them off. It's almost like those "He was always such a nice quiet boy" murderers, lol.
Anyhow, it's all the same... Vick, Bull Terriers, religion... nobody ever changes their mind! :D


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:37 pm 
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Banzai-Tron wrote:
Anyhow, it's all the same... Vick, Bull Terriers, religion... nobody ever changes their mind! :D


Yes, but here at TFL they get discussed in a very civil fashion. You guys make me proud. 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:23 am 
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Banzai-Tron wrote:
Brawn wrote:
Banzai,

i know you can't train a dog to be completely unaggressive as i said there is always a chance for animal instinct to take over. A perfectly trained Labrador could maul a child also and i am sure there are documented cases of that.. and yes i know a pitbull attack would be more damaging than a pug attack. that is why they are chosen for dog fighting. they have a powerful bite and do not release easily when they latch on. I am just saying you can't classify all bull terriers as vicious.

in my experience they can be very friendly when given proper training and treatment. As an aside to the CDC study you quoted it also says that the pitbulls in question of DBRF were proven to be highly unsocialized.


I don't believe anyone WAS classifying all bull terriers as vicious. We're just saying that they're MORE DANGEROUS than your average dog. Bull Terriers are more dangerous when instinct takes over, and it's slightly more likely that instinct will take over with them.

And a Pit Bull can be all sweet and friendly for years... until the wrong trigger sets them off. It's almost like those "He was always such a nice quiet boy" murderers, lol.
Anyhow, it's all the same... Vick, Bull Terriers, religion... nobody ever changes their mind! :D


The issue at hand is still not whether or not pit bulls are more or less dangerous.

The issue at hand is the set of actions of one individual against a set of pit bulls.

The arguments of pit bulls being dangerous, in this topic, is going down the same road as the victim of a mugging being at fault for walking down a certain street. No one would actually say that the person that was mugged was criminal, or prone to criminality for walking.

The victim of the mugging actually had choices, whereas the puppies that were purchased specifically to fight in this case did not.

The topic, at this point, is still whether or not a man that had so much money and free time on his hands, that he decided he needed to raise and train to living creatures to kill one another, simply for his pleasure, deserves to return to a position that allows him to make excesses of money (even if it is only a fraction of what it was before.... as it is still a lot more than most in this country see in ten to twenty years of hard work).

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:15 am 
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I guess my biggest point here in that I fully support Vick playing football again is this:

We finally have a criminal, who not only received fair judgement but was also openly MADE AN EXAMPLE OF by the judge, and did his FULL LENGTH of time in the can.

You know what sickens me most about our justice system? The fact that anyone can go out and do anything (rape, rob, kill, all 3 at once, etc.) and be released on a technicality...even if conclusive evidence exists.

I'm happy that Vick got what he deserved, and was the guinea pig for a generation. I'm even more happy that there was no incentive for him at all (except the final 2 months of house arrest...which is almost as bad knowing your out and can't do ANYTHING).

Finally the justic system worked the way it should...he will be in debt forever more than finance can compute. At least let him get back to his normal life, given the gifts he has, and rebuild a life like the justice system wants him to do.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:47 pm 
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Ugh.. i was going to avoid this thread...

.. however at 4am in the morning my 12 week old great dane is fighting for his life. His stomach turned and we didn't know, xrays confirmed and I just got home from dropping him off for surgery.

I don't have kids, my 2 Danes are my kids. As far as I'm concerned Vick should never be allowed to play in the National Felony League again.
Football isn't a right, it's a privilege - and he should have lost that.

Now, it isn't because "it's against the law" that makes me say this. Spend some time with a dog that's been abused, or beaten, or starved, or abandoned. Try to give a soft pat on the head only to watch it cower in fear or hang it's head in shame.

A dog is only as bad as it's owner.... period.

FWIW - I don't roll a 6 figure income, but I just shelled out $1700 bucks to save my dogs life. I could have paid $50 to put him down.
Vick brings in millions of dollars and was also making money to end dogs lives.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:35 pm 
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Ultra Magnus wrote:
Banzai-Tron wrote:
Brawn wrote:
Banzai,

i know you can't train a dog to be completely unaggressive as i said there is always a chance for animal instinct to take over. A perfectly trained Labrador could maul a child also and i am sure there are documented cases of that.. and yes i know a pitbull attack would be more damaging than a pug attack. that is why they are chosen for dog fighting. they have a powerful bite and do not release easily when they latch on. I am just saying you can't classify all bull terriers as vicious.

in my experience they can be very friendly when given proper training and treatment. As an aside to the CDC study you quoted it also says that the pitbulls in question of DBRF were proven to be highly unsocialized.


I don't believe anyone WAS classifying all bull terriers as vicious. We're just saying that they're MORE DANGEROUS than your average dog. Bull Terriers are more dangerous when instinct takes over, and it's slightly more likely that instinct will take over with them.

And a Pit Bull can be all sweet and friendly for years... until the wrong trigger sets them off. It's almost like those "He was always such a nice quiet boy" murderers, lol.
Anyhow, it's all the same... Vick, Bull Terriers, religion... nobody ever changes their mind! :D


The issue at hand is still not whether or not pit bulls are more or less dangerous.

The issue at hand is the set of actions of one individual against a set of pit bulls.

The arguments of pit bulls being dangerous, in this topic, is going down the same road as the victim of a mugging being at fault for walking down a certain street. No one would actually say that the person that was mugged was criminal, or prone to criminality for walking.

The victim of the mugging actually had choices, whereas the puppies that were purchased specifically to fight in this case did not.

The topic, at this point, is still whether or not a man that had so much money and free time on his hands, that he decided he needed to raise and train to living creatures to kill one another, simply for his pleasure, deserves to return to a position that allows him to make excesses of money (even if it is only a fraction of what it was before.... as it is still a lot more than most in this country see in ten to twenty years of hard work).


Well, actually, the topic at THAT point was off on a sidetrack. Yes, the issue of whether pitbulls are a dangerous breed, and the Vick case are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT discussions. I don't think anyone was talking about the dangers (or lack thereof) of pitbulls in regards to the Vick case.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:03 pm 
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good points all around. For the pitbulls stuff I was trying to say you can't generalize all of them as dangerous. i think they are wrongly feared by many people. i still feel any dog can snap at the "wrong trigger". but i do agree that if a pitbull does snap it will do more damage than other breeds may do.

As for Vick. Bottom line is the guy can run, throw, score TD's, and is/was a great athlete. winning and money is all that counts in pro sports. character does not matter. it will be funny to watch the always rowdy philly fans dump beer on the PETA people when they protest an eagles game.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:43 am 
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Brawn wrote:
it will be funny to watch the always rowdy philly fans dump beer on the PETA people when they protest an eagles game.


hilarious, and more hilarious when it inevitably happens :lol:

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