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That's the kind of sourcing I need, thanks OL!

As for a reasonable explanation of Metro, here's my version. Symmetry. You have two different connection types for leader bots: The rectangular peg (Silverbolt and Onslaught) or the hook (Motormaster and Hot Spot). Obviously, it'd make sense to have one ramp branch off either side of Metro, but when you assign factions... and I'd say it was equally likely that Motormaster became a bot and Superion a con... you make two connectors sockets on Metro's leg, then mirror them so you can put either leader on either side.
Then, you go on to add this feature to Trypticon, in the form of the two back spine/connectors. Well, now we know we need to connect any of the leaders to either side, and here we're designing one part expressly for that purpose, so why not kill all birds with one stone and make a universal connector, and just put one on each side!

I know this Fumihiko has cred, if i'm not mistaken, his collection IS the transformers generations book (I wonder if he had an unbroken electro in both modes!), but at the same time i find there to be wiggle room that these were actually designed during diaclone, as opposed to concepted.

Also, I find it funny that you talk about the "marketing risk" of having 4 bot teams to one con... Since by the end of G1, there were 7 con teams to 3 bots, with Devastator, Predaking, Piranacon, and Monstructor having no "equal number" on the other side.

Lastly, I find one thing even more believable than this: my proposed hypothetical where the cars stay as 'bots and the jets as 'cons is more likely:

Bruticus and Superion both have a helmet-style head, a ramp accessory, comparable size, one large and one small chestplate.

Menasor and Defensor both feature an "alternative" head design (integrated or a mask), a multi-part chestplate, an unusual waistplate, TWO hand weapons, no ramp accessory, smaller, more delicate handguns for the little guys, vehicle cannons that mount in the combiner kibble hole, and smaller overall gestalt modes, though about the same size as each other...

ok ive just gone cross eyed with all this

i thought metroplex and the four combiner team leaders were origanally designed for the scramble city idea

the cartoon episode ( i think ) was set between the end of series 2 and the 86 movie

wouldnt his suggest that both metroplex and the team leaders were already designed before series 2 began ?

i could well be wrong so please dont slap me with a wet fish

Wonder wot the Movie would have been like if they had started work on it a little later, once all the combiners were established. The Battle at the start would have been bigger and cooooler............not that it wasnt already.

Really, the movie didn't even feature Omega yet to fend off Devastator. He and the combiners we've been discussing are sorta retconned as having been elsewhere, engaged in battles that were not cool enough to be worth showing

Someone so needs to take that movie and animate all the 'Unanimated' parts of the storyboards. And animate sequences involving the combiners and Omega, using the old school animation of the time........would end up 2hrs long and probably a jumbled mess, but would make one awesome special edition!! lol

Time Traveller wrote:That's the kind of sourcing I need, thanks OL!

As for a reasonable explanation of Metro, here's my version. Symmetry. You have two different connection types for leader bots: The rectangular peg (Silverbolt and Onslaught) or the hook (Motormaster and Hot Spot). Obviously, it'd make sense to have one ramp branch off either side of Metro, but when you assign factions... and I'd say it was equally likely that Motormaster became a bot and Superion a con... you make two connectors sockets on Metro's leg, then mirror them so you can put either leader on either side.
Then, you go on to add this feature to Trypticon, in the form of the two back spine/connectors. Well, now we know we need to connect any of the leaders to either side, and here we're designing one part expressly for that purpose, so why not kill all birds with one stone and make a universal connector, and just put one on each side!

Well I guess there's no clear proof that they were designed during the waning days of diaclone (or disproof, for that matter). I believe for that we have to go on google japan and grapple with some kanji and katakana for "Jizai Gattai" which I have tried but became instantly lost in the results.

However the origins of the four teams and metroplex definitely pre-date the transformers line, regardless if they were actualized before hand, or conceptualized.

Also, I find it funny that you talk about the "marketing risk" of having 4 bot teams to one con... Since by the end of G1, there were 7 con teams to 3 bots, with Devastator, Predaking, Piranacon, and Monstructor having no "equal number" on the other side.

The marketing risk isn't so funny if you think about it from a marketing perspective. For argument's sake suppose the four teams were autobots, and Devastator and Predaking the only combiners for the decepticons. This is 1986 (you are right I had forgotten to include Predaking).

From a marketing perspective, (not including the cities metroplex and trypticon) you have 6 large autobots: Superion, Bruticus, Menasor, Defensor, Omega Supreme, and Sky Lynx.

On the decepticons, you have 2 large decepticons: Devastator and Predaking.

And by large robot, I mean to say that they were presented to kids as being super robots in size in the cartoon...and not literally large robots as in ultra magnus, shockwave, jetfire, etc.

That's 6 vs. 2. Shift the combaticons and stunticons over to the Decepticons and now, miraculously, you have 4 vs. 4. That's because from a marketing perspective, it's ok for the decepticons to be laden with gimmicks (in this case, the combiners) because you have alternative gimmicks on the autobot side. Omega Supreme was presented in the cartoon as being Devastator's opponent. Kids didn't care (and I certainly didn't) that Omega wasn't a combiner, they cared that he was awesome and all decepticons fell back when they saw him. Likewise, in both commercials and the cartoon Sky Lynx was marketed as being Predaking's foe. Sky Lynx and OS more than made up for their lack of combining gimmick by being motorized and having multiple modes of conversion...I actually preferred these two to any of the decepticon gestalts as a kid. The cartoon and commercials clearly established that they were Autobot counterparts to decepticon gestalts, while not actually being gestalts themselves.

So basically, the marketing risk I'm talking about is releasing the four special teams as autobots, which would have the exact effect of having 6 large robots on the autobot side vs. 2 on the decepticon side, or 4 combiners vs. 2. Extrapolating that out to the end of U.S. G1, yes you have 3 autobots vs. 7 cons, but that's not how it was marketed...after including OS and Sky Lynx, you end up with 5 vs. 7, and Monstructor isn't standard size so it's really 5 vs. 6. Finally, the Powermaster Optimus Prime commercials presented him as being a super robot in size after combining with his trailer. While not explicitly presented in the U.S., the only comparable decepticon in size in 1988 was piranacon, so there you have it. In Japan, the Masterforce cartoon presented Piranacon's opponent as Super Ginrai, which in toy form we know as Powermaster Optimus Prime combined with his trailer. I'd be curious to see if the Japanese toy commercials for King Poseidon (aka Piranacon) showed him battling Super Ginrai. Of course, Piranacon would prove no challenge to Super Ginrai in the Japanese cartoon, which would pave the way for Super Ginrai to repeatedly get his ass kicked by Overlord

Lastly, I find one thing even more believable than this: my proposed hypothetical where the cars stay as 'bots and the jets as 'cons is more likely:

Bruticus and Superion both have a helmet-style head, a ramp accessory, comparable size, one large and one small chestplate.

Menasor and Defensor both feature an "alternative" head design (integrated or a mask), a multi-part chestplate, an unusual waistplate, TWO hand weapons, no ramp accessory, smaller, more delicate handguns for the little guys, vehicle cannons that mount in the combiner kibble hole, and smaller overall gestalt modes, though about the same size as each other...

Not too sure what the argument is here -can you explain. Though, Hot Spot is the only team leader that doesn't function as a ramp. Motormaster doesn't have a ramp accessory because the ramp is built into his transformation...part of the trailer becomes the ramp. So you have three ramps and 1 "repair bay"

Dirge wrote:ok ive just gone cross eyed with all this

i thought metroplex and the four combiner team leaders were origanally designed for the scramble city idea

the cartoon episode ( i think ) was set between the end of series 2 and the 86 movie

wouldnt his suggest that both metroplex and the team leaders were already designed before series 2 began ?

i could well be wrong so please dont slap me with a wet fish

Scramble city is the design of Metroplex and the four teams. The cartoon came after the fact...and due to whatever reasons, the four teams and metroplex weren't explicitly shown in the movie. However Jizai Gattai, or "Free Combination", can also be translated to mean "Scramble City" apparently.

I remember reading on the old alt.toys.transformers news group about 11 or 12 years ago that the premise of the Jizai Gattai aborted toy-line was to have the city robot (whom we know as Metroplex) be sort of this ultimate prize that the four groups would battle over in a four team free-for-all battle. One group would be all planes, another all cars, another group military vehicles, and the last group rescue/emergency vehicles. The goal was for one team to capture the city robot by attaching the main robot to its city mode and have the smaller robots attach to its limbs in robot mode. The first team to gain possession over the city robot would be the "winner" in the battle. I don't remember who posted that information or from where he got the information from, or if it was just conjecture and BS, but I remember reading it and being fascinated at the potential hidden history behind these toys. So yeah.

Primus2000 wrote:Wonder wot the Movie would have been like if they had started work on it a little later, once all the combiners were established. The Battle at the start would have been bigger and cooooler............not that it wasnt already.

Primus2000 wrote:Someone so needs to take that movie and animate all the 'Unanimated' parts of the storyboards. And animate sequences involving the combiners and Omega, using the old school animation of the time........would end up 2hrs long and probably a jumbled mess, but would make one awesome special edition!! lol

Yeah it would...I haven't done any research on the matter but it's probably budgetary concerns. Just think of all the extra animation required to make Omega Supreme in movie animated standards...then multiply that by four to include the combiners, on top of Devastator and the Dinobots, who have an enmity. That would have been out of control and too much to ask for...but man I would KILL to see that! (not literally, but you get the point)

now im wiser than i was 10 minutes ago after reading that .........

Maybe when they were making the episode for the series at the time the shuttle was still fairly new (It launched in 1981) and maybe they (Hasbro) wanted to "Modernized it" What do I know I thought it sounded good anyway That's my thought I like that Blast Off is part of the mighty Bruticus anyway.

in your collection ......

blast off apears to be part of abominus

DAMN YOU ALL!! JK

Just reading all this makes me want a Metroplex and the four combiners sooo bad!!! I may just have to spring for Metroplex next paycheck.

I don't have G1 Bruticus but I have RiD Ruination and Ko's of Defensor and Superion.

This has been a very informative topic too.

hate to throw another spanner in the works but why is it the metroplex figure must be autobot faction??, could all 4 combiners and base not have been decept?. 1985 release gave the autobot faction their battle station omega, 4 combiners plus base meant a more leveling up the total number of toys released up until that point?.

my 2 cents on blast off, first off the shuttle was not only intended as "civillian" uses if not for challenger the first launch would have happened in vandenberg(from memory).

Personally I think it comes down to some "genius" at hasbro, a shuttle with a concord goes better, but it came down to the way one person decided to assemble the figures at a meeting. streetwise could easily become a stunticon car, other than stickers what makes groove a police bike not a cruiser?. who knows how many other sample figures they had.
The big gimmic of interchangability was lost but play the fiction right and kids will still buy the toys.