Combaticon Question??

[Primus2000]

Hmmm this is a light note post.

Nothing serious but the Combaticons are all COMBAT vehciles right??

Onslaught - Anti aircraft cannon type thing
Swindle - Army Jeep
Brawl - Tank
Vortex - Helicopter
Blast Off.........now heres the query?? he is a NASA Space Shuttle, has anyone seen NASA produce a space shuttle for the military?? What has a space shuttle got to do with Army Combat Artillery??? They are after all COMBATicons???

Maybe I'm just daft but hey its a curious thought??

[Banzai-Tron]

has anyone seen NASA produce a space shuttle for the military?? What has a space shuttle got to do with Army Combat Artillery???

Not that have lived to tell about it. I suggest you stop asking questions, before you get yourself in trouble!

[captainamerica]

Maybe he carries military satellites into orbit.

Also, all the early astronauts & cosmonauts were military personnel. The initial US space program relied heavily on military technology. I know that's quite a bit of a jump from Apollo rockets to BlastOff, but maybe that's it.

[Overlord]

i dont know it's very bizarre. If you watch the G1 episode Starscream's Brigade it shows Starscream creating the combaticons from wreckage from the Battle of Guadacanal, only he created them into modern (at the time) vehicles. Blast Off was originally some heavy bomber, maybe a B-17 flying fortress or a B-24 (can't remember).

He really should have been a decepticon B-29. Of course, the real answer lies with the diaclone engineers who had a space shuttle robot go with combat vehicles. bizarre.

[Hot Rod]

Well the Combaticons form the greatest Combiner ever so who really cares if Blast Off got the short end of the straw it all comes good in the end.....

[Banzai-Tron]

Of course, the real answer lies with the diaclone engineers who had a space shuttle robot go with combat vehicles. bizarre.

Errr... I don't think Diaclone made the Combaticons?

[Overlord]

Of course, the real answer lies with the diaclone engineers who had a space shuttle robot go with combat vehicles. bizarre.

Errr... I don't think Diaclone made the Combaticons?

I'm pretty sure that the combaticons, the aerialbots, the protectobots, and the stunticons along with metroplex were all previously designed for the diaclone line. Thanks to hasbro they made their way instead to the transformers line.

IIRC Computron, the Seacons, and Abominus were the only teams who were designed with the "scramble city" method that were actually made specifically for the transformers line, and didn't borrow from some plans that diaclone had already made.

edit: and by Diaclone, I don't mean diaclone itself, but some affiliated sub-line or some such...like the way Pretenders are to the overall Transformers line.

[Primus2000]

Interesting discussion....maybe Hasbro knew something we didnt (conspiracies) maybe all those UFO's are secret army space shuttle tests....lol

[Time Traveller]

Accuracy:
Onslaught: Based off a real-life tractor trailer (read which one, can't remember) that would have had no cannons... those are fictitious.
Swindle: XR-311 prototype support vehicle
Vortex: SH-2 Sea Sprite helicopter
Blastoff: Space shuttle orbiter
Brawl: Leopard 1 MBT

Overlord, while i can't directly refute your hypothesis at the moment, i've NEVER heard that the 1986 SC Gestalts were Diaclone holdovers. I've heard theories that the concept of Metroplex was based on a Diaclone idea, but that's all the farther it went. Frankly... it just doesn't seem likely to me. Without any samples, sketches, or other production process evidence previous to transformers, I find it a bit hard to swallow.

Meanwhile, I'll be poring over the vehicle modes in hopes of an indication that the vehicle the toy resembles was built post- Diaclone!

[Dirge]

to my ( somewhat simple ) mind
the name combaticons comes from starscream building them to combat megatron

[SOUNDBLASTER]

That makes total sense Dirge

[Overlord]

Overlord, while i can't directly refute your hypothesis at the moment, i've NEVER heard that the 1986 SC Gestalts were Diaclone holdovers. I've heard theories that the concept of Metroplex was based on a Diaclone idea, but that's all the farther it went. Frankly... it just doesn't seem likely to me. Without any samples, sketches, or other production process evidence previous to transformers, I find it a bit hard to swallow.

It's more than my personal hypothesis...back last year in the toy "secrets" thread I posted how Metroplex is designed to attach all four "scramble city" type leaders (Silverbolt, Onslaught, Motormaster, and Hot Spot) to his city mode to make an expanded "super" city mode. Metroplex is a holdover from the diaclone line..this we know. We also know neither Takara nor Hasbro altered the mold in any significant form.

Trypticon is not a holdover from diaclone and since he had no ports to attach any of the leaders, HasTak had to design the "L" connectors to allow motormaster and onslaught to attach...and motormaster and onslaught ONLY.

Contrast this with Metroplex who has the capability to attach all four team leaders...this design decision clearly predates any designation of the four special teams, and metroplex himself, into Autobot and Decepticon factions...i.e. the Stunticons, the Aerialbots, the Combaticons, the Protectobots, and Metroplex are all old holdovers from a diaclone sub-line which were designed to integrate and interact with one another, before Hasbro had created Autobot and Decepticon factions. You could ask yourself, how could Hasbro indicate on its instruction sheet that not only silverbolt and hot spot can attach to metroplex, but also the evil decepticons motormaster and onslaught as well? They could not reconcile that and left the feature out entirely from the instructions. The only thing hasbro illustrated was attaching the aerialbots to metroplex in robot mode to form a "super metroplex" when in fact he was originally designed to do so with ALL the scramble city "limb" robots, which were later to be separated into autobot and decepticon factions by hasbro/marvel. Over in Japan, a little more light is shed on the subject by the instruction sheet for the takara release of metroplex, which does indicate that silverbolt and hot spot can attach...but refrains from showing the two additional slots meant to accommodate motormaster and onslaught.

Another fact..Metroplex's weapon pegs can fit into and attach to any of the combiners, or the team leaders themselves. Any limbs from SC combiners can be swapped for another...that was the gimmick that was created for this diaclon sub-line, which was then imported into Transformers.

Edit: after doing some quick research the confusion I caused with Banzai-Tron and you may be that i neglected to mention that the diaclone sub-line i'm referring to actually never made it into commercial release, but was rather aborted in favor of being absorbed into the transformers juggernaut that hasbro had started rolling. The line would have been called Jizai Gattai or "free combination" upon commercial release.

Piranacon, Abominus, and Computron were purely Transformers designs, but they obviously heavily borrowed from this pre-Transformers design concept

[Rumble]

*Absorbs Overlord's information like a sponge.*

Thanks for that Overlord, it was a very interesting post that you made.

Rumble.

[Primus2000]

Woooah I started up one hell of a debate here!.....what a way to join the Forum!! lol

[Time Traveller]

Your logic is intriguing, but this is all based on the pretense that metro was pure diaclone design, and not just conceptualized. in my own research, I've never found corroborating evidence that Metro was sculpted and engineered during Diaclone.
Further, it's hard to rectify the copy stamp dates, since the known Dia and Microchange toys ported into transformers usually bear their original dates, usually 80-83.
However, the four SC gestalts and Metro, are dated post-diaclone era, are they not? Without digging mine out, i'm guessing "1985", from the standard of being dated the year before retail release.

Now, don't get me wrong, I know something is fishy with the '86 gestalts, since all four leaders have de-activated vehicle launchers. We've seen this before in Pre-TF designs, but it's also not unheard of for a feature to be scrapped due to costs shortly previous to production (the pilots of BW TM2 tigatron and megatron, for example), with no preliminary series that included the full feature.
Regarding Metro's leader ports, I wouldn't call them conclusive. Certainly, the gun post size similarities mean little... that post diameter has been a standard for years, innumerable interchangabilities exist. Hell, there are G1's with MINI-CON ports.... Which just happen to be drilled posts of that standard size.


Lastly, I know I'm coming off like to be wrong, and am just stick-in-the-mudding this one, but I hope you CAN prove me wrong... Evidencing that only a few of Transformer's "first year of newly designed castings" only contained a few actual castings designed with TF in mind, would be the greatest conspiracy ever! Also, I'd LOVE to know what the "Jizai Gattai" versions were colored like, to look decent limb-swapped... kitbash, anyone?

[Overlord]

Fair points. However:

I dont find the copy stamp dates to be an issue because those are all finalized/released molds that hasbro simply directly imported into the Transformers line from the still-prevalent diaclone line in japan. Those molds were all but exhausted in 1985. The issue i'm raising is that metroplex and the other gestalts were under development for this sub-diaclone line but the whole entire line wasn't made commercial; it's commercial release was scrapped and instead it was absorbed into the Transformers toy line. That would mean the first physical actuality of the molds was in 1985, but they were designed before-hand for diaclone. That's the fundamental difference beteween the diaclone molds that would have the copy stamp of 80-83...they were already released commercially under the Diaclone brand before they were brought into Transformers as optimus, ultra magnus, and so forth.. If you haven't released an item commercially (don't know too much about japanese and U.S. copy right law, but I think this is how it works) you would have no legal recourse to copy right something that never made it past developmental stages. So you can't copy stamp silverbolt 1983 because the diaclone sub-line (in this case, Jizai Gattai) he was to be released under never made it into commercial release, in contrast with the diaclone molds that have the copy stamps of 80-83 which did have commercial release.

Though there is indeed something fishy with the gestalt leaders, but it's only for our domestic American release. For example, the ever prevalent child safety laws here in the U.S. neutered the launching mechanism on Silverbolt, but the Japanese release silverbolt still has it intact. And while the leader ports aren't conclusive, they certainly do give heavy credence to the idea of diaclone origins of the four special teams and metroplex. The converse idea, that they were all developed and designed purely in the transformers realm, begs the question "why does autobot city have space for two decepticons to attach and enhance the playability of the figure?" There's no reasonable explanation to that unless you want to make the argument that the stunticons and combaticons were originally meant to be on the side of the autobots, but hasTak decided that for the autobots to have 4 combiners - vs. the sole option of Devastator for the decepticons - was too much of a marketing risk, and evened things up.

Now lamentably it's difficult for me to find any primary source material but there is this:

These Diaclone robots were considered to be piloted machines, so all the toys were designed to hold or carry figures in seats or cockpits.
Later, however, Takara started developing some toys without figures. The Kentsetsusha, or Construction, Robos, later issued as the
Constructicons, and the Jizai Gattai, or Free Combination, Teams, which
weren't actually released for Diaclone but later became the Aerialbots
and Stunticons, didn't have space for figures. By the time the
Construction Robos came out, both the size and presence of action
figures in Takara's history was down to almost zero. As the robots
became action figures themselves, the toys were coming ever closer to
the style of TFs.

-excerpt from speech given by Fumihiko Akiyama at Botcon '04, on the history of Transformers toys. Found at http://www.geocities.com/futuristgroup/vfirsttf2.html

Fumihiko Akiyama (after I used google) is a big time fan of Transformers whose collection is so vast parts of it were photographed for the Transformers Generations book. He apparently also worked for Takara in an official capacity, and organized the three official Japanese botcons. So I'm pretty comfortable that the guy is legit and is knowledgeable, and is apparently the ultimate fan in addition.

*Absorbs Overlord's information like a sponge.*

Thanks for that Overlord, it was a very interesting post that you made.

Rumble.

Woooah I started up one hell of a debate here!.....what a way to join the Forum!! lol

heh, all in good fun fellas.

[Primus2000]

Well of course, anyway the Combaticons were coooool.
And Bruticus is one cool looking toy. So who cares eh?

[Rumble]

Seriously I find this stuff fascinating; it's always good to learn new things.

Rumble.

[Deszaras]

I thought that metroplex was designed before the gestalt leaders were assigned to the factions hence why he has ports for all four of them but lacks instructions on how to do it.

Raiden and devastator were the only two TF combiners that have diaclone/microchange roots.

[Primus2000]

It is fascinating really...........I've learnt knew things about them ever since digging them out of the attic where they sat for something like 18yrs

Didnt realise combiners could attach to Metroplex back then.

I'm gutted cos I flogged them on Ebay (before I learnt of this site) and I could have got so much more.

I then decided to collect some new ones that I never had. The Combaticons were one of them, now they stand in the hall in all there glory, with Devastator and Abominus for company